I'm afraid it's the end .....

Hello, wonderful Shack readers.

     Well, I hate to do this, but I think that I have to discontinue the discussion.  The month of May is going to be a whirlwind for me (I'm out of town as I write this) and there's no way I can keep leading it.  The kids are coming home next weekend, I have a daughter graduating from college the next weekend and then I'm heading to Russia the day after that to visit our oldest child.  

      Tom graciously posted the discussion last week and we didn't get any comments.  It would appear that the interest, and/or the time is waning.

I know that May is a hugely busy month for many people.

      Now, if anyone feels strongly about this ...... and would like to lead the discussion I'd be happy to work that out.

Someone could even just write one last post that would sum up the rest of the book if they wanted to.

     I'm sorry to have to bow out like this ...... I think the the chapter-by-chapter method made it too long.

     I would love to continue discussing other books or topic here ..... which is why I called the site "Let's Discuss".  

If you have any ideas for topics or books that we could talk about .... I'd really appreciate hearing them.

     So once again ....... please jump in and and discuss .......

Janine asked me to fill in, which I’m always happy to do.  So let’s get started.  This is a great chapter…but then, aren’t they all?

This chapter starts out with a good quote – any thoughts on that? – and an interesting idea right from the start.  Mack sees Papa sitting on the porch and says,
“What’s this?  God has time to catch a few rays?  Don’t you have anything better to do this afternoon?”
“Mack, you have no idea what I’m doing right now.”
Ummm, maybe upholding all things by the power of His word.???  Sustaining the all of creation … right down to the little details like our breath and our heart beeat???  How can we even begin to grasp the One with whom we have to do?

I totally identify with Mack on p.184, when he admits, “I’ve been pretty hard on you,” to God.  How many times have I literally shook my fist in God’s face and presumptuously told Him I could do a better job of running the universe.  Is this a common failing?  Or am I just a uniquely perverse egotist?

Young gets into something in this chapter that is very interesting to me.  And I’m not sure I agree with his take.  I’d appreciate your thoughts.  It begins at the bottom of p.185, and continues on to the next page.  And it is touched on again on the top of p. 187, and again on p.192.  It is the idea of the extent of God’s involvement in the bad things that happen to us.  Young has Papa saying that He doesn’t orchestrate tragedy, He doesn’t cause it.  And this is a concept that has to be handled very delicately and with nuance.  But it strikes me that if Sovereignty means anything at all, it means that nothing, NOTHING, happens without God having given His okay.

Look at the Book of Job.  Satan accuses that Job will curse God to His face if He “touches” him, but in so doing, he acknowledges that only God has the authority to do that.  And then God gives him permission, with limits.  Satan isn’t the direct agent of destruction, the Sabeans, the tornado, etc. are.  Satan is the indirect cause.  But it only happened because God said ‘okay’.

The nuance is that God has a purpose.  God knows the end from the beginning.  And God’s values are for His glory and eternal in scope while ours tend to be selfish and time-bound.  As Isaiah put it, My ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts.  As far as the heavens are above the earth so far are my thoughts above your thoughts and my ways above your ways. God is not a bully.  God is a parent dealing with a two-year old.  Sometimes a parent causes a child pain for his own good.  Think of a flu shot, for example.

So what do you think?  Is this an idea that is all wet?  Or can you see it?  For me it has become a real anchor.  Because I know that if God has a purpose, it is for my good; He loves me.  What do you think?

Skipping ahead, I find the idea on the top of p.189, fascinating.  The idea that lies and the relational games we can play are rooted in fear.  How do you feel about that?  Do you know people who are fearful in the way they live their lives?  What kinds of dysfunctions does fear produce besides lies?

I love the section in the middle of p.190 down to the bottom, about the results of man’s quest for independence.  What are your thoughts, responses to the idea there?

Finally, what is your response to the idea about the ultimate purpose of Creation on p.191 to 192?  It just blows me away.

And one of the most touching lines in the whole book is the last sentence of the chapter.  It brought me to tears.  Wouldn’t you love to be able to kiss Papa on the cheek?

So, there are some of the high points for me.  What grabbed your attention?

Tom

Chapter 12: In the Belly of the Beasts

Hello again, Shack readers.

     Last week was another pretty quiet week, so I'm going to ask everyone if this is something I should continue doing?

There are 18 chapters, so that means 6 more weeks left.  Are you starting to get burned out?

I realize that it's been Easter and Spring Break, so maybe it's been a bit more difficult to read and/or comment, but I'd like as many opinions as possible, please.

If there's a big loss of interest now then we can either stop here or we can try to wrap it all up a lot sooner.

     That being said, I will comment on Chapter 12.  This will be a difficult post because I had passages underlined on every single page of this chapter.  I can't write about all of them because this post would be way too long and I'd be writing all night.

So again, please know that I'm just pointing out a few items and am hoping that you will point out the ones that struck you.

     Did anyone have any thoughts about the two quotes that he used to open up this chapter?  I thought they both spoke volumes.

     As this chapter opens Mack is on his way back to meet Jesus, after his "judgement" meeting in the cave (with the woman we find out now is named, Sophia).   

     The amazing thing is ..... he realizes now that "The Great Sadness" is gone .... and he now wonders who he'll be now ..... now that he's letting all of that go?  How will it be "to walk into each day without the guilt and despair that had sucked the coors of life out of everything."

I wonder that for myself sometimes, too.  Not that I feel any guilt over Jim's death, but I definitely have felt despair ... and great sadness.  Some times it's hard to remember what it was like "before" ...... when I felt joy at so many things .... so many blessings.  I didn't have to work at feeling blessed ... or joyful.  Just an aside from me.

     I was very moved by Jesus' telling of being with Missy ..... through everything that happened to her .... everything.  And that Missy was actually more worried about Mack, and her siblings and that she had prayed for their peace.  

And I was moved when, as Mack's tears poured forth at this news, Jesus drew him into His arms and held him.  

And as Jesus held him ..... Mack no longer felt alone.  What a huge release he must've felt with each tear that fell .... and with every second that he was held tightly by Jesus.  

     On page 174 Jesus says, "The darkness hides the true size of fears and lies and regrets.  The truth is they are more shadow than reality, so they seem bigger in the dark.  When the light shines into the places they live inside you, you start to see them for what they are."

This spoke straight to my heart.

Thoughts?

     There is a description, by Jesus, on page 175 of a real relationship .... with what They want with Mack ... with us.  This is a kind of friendship that has started to be very real for me .... not just with Them, but also here .... on this earth ....... with brothers and sisters who are Christ in skin for me:

     Mack asks Jesus what he needs to do now .... to change and to not be lost in the dark anymore.

     "What you're already doing, Mack, learning to live loved.  It's not an easy concept for humans.  You have a hard time sharing anything.  So, yes, what we desire is for you to 're-turn' to us, and then we come and make our home inside you, and then we share.  The friendship is real, not merely imagined.  We're meant to experience this life, your life, together, in a dialogue, sharing the journey.  You get to share in our wisdom and learn to love with our love and we get ... to hear you grumble and gripe and complain, and ...,"

     I think that this is what we, as Christians, are meant to do with one another.  As I said earlier, I am very blessed to have this kind of friendship ...... this relationship ..... here on earth.

We are meant to experience our lives together ..... through the good, and especially through the bad.

Thoughts?

     On page 176 Mack tells Jesus that he's not sure why we (humans) resist Him/Them so much, and that it seems kind of stupid.  Jesus says that it's all part of the timing of grace.

What are your thoughts on why we resist Them so much?  

     Another passage that struck me in on page 178.  Jesus talks about the "church" and what His definition of that is.

My physical church is currently trying to convey this message to our members.  It seems to simple to me (as Jesus tells Mack) but some people seem to really be struggling with it.  That struggle is difficult for me to understand.

Here is what Jesus says:

     "It's simple, mack.  It's all about relationships and simply sharing life.  What we are doing right now -- just doing this -- and being open and available to others around us.  My church is all about people and life is all about relationships.  You can't build it.  It's my job and I'm actually pretty good at it."

     I love this ..... it's really a repeat of what He said earlier about what They want out of a relationship with us.  They want that for each of us with each other, too.

Thoughts?

  

     I will end with the topic on page 182 ..... the part of the book that I think most Christians struggle with.

    Jesus says that he's not a Christian.  And then he proceeds to tell Mack that those who love Him come from every system in the world ..... all religions, all political sects, all who go - or don't go - to church, all citizens of the world from every country.  

"I have no desire to make them Christian, but I do want to join them in their transformation into sons and daughters of my Papa, into my brothers and sisters, into my Beloved."

     What are your thoughts on this passage?  What about John 14:6 -- Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Do you think Young is negating this or is he affirming it?

I think that this passage in the book has been a "sticking point" for a lot of people.

     So there you go ..... some points on Chapter 12 to discuss.

Again, please let me know if you're still interested in continuing this discussion.  It has been rather long and so it may be time to move on to something else.

Have a good week.

     

     

Chapter 11: Here Come Da Judge

     Yes, it's Monday so I am a day late (and more than a dollar short).

I thought about skipping this week, but don't want this to start dragging too much.

Today's post will be shorter than it would have been if I'd done it yesterday, had yesterday not been Easter, but it was, and I didn't ..... so it's not.

There ya go.

Chapter 11 starts off with Mack "passing through" a solid stone wall ..... into complete and utter darkness.

I could feel his fear.  

I have been in that blackness ..... where you can only put one foot in front of the other, as your hands reach out in front of you ..... and you sometimes run into things because you can only concentrate on your feet.

The blackness certainly makes you appreciate the light ..... even the tiniest amount.

I liked the fact that Mack pushed ahead through the stone, through the blackness ..... through his fear ...... because Jesus had told him to go there and he had no doubt in Jesus .... and His purpose.

Mack has already come a long way.

What did you think about the "woman" telling Mack ...... it's not love that grows .... it's the "knowing" that grows and love then simply expands to fill the "knowing"?

I've always heard that your heart grows bigger .... like when you have another child .... your heart grows bigger to hold more love.

Mack is asked to choose 2 out his 5 children to go to Heaven (after finally admitting that he did, indeed, blame God) ..... and thus choose three who will go to hell.  I think when I first read this part of the book, I wondered why Mack didn't "get it".  Why he got so upset and didn't put two and two together.

But then again ..... I would suppose that if one gets the opportunity to spend a weekend with the Trinity .... many things might not "add up".

But this is where he finally does "get it" .... by not being able to make the choice and by offering himself up in the place of his children.

He got it.

And .... he got the chance to see Missy.

What an amazing gift that was.

I smiled and cried with him.

Especially when she ran straight into Jesus' arms and he lifted her up and spun her around.

Wow.

Back to the "blame" part ..... I liked this whole discussion .... especially the explanation about Missy's death not being part of God's plan ..... nothing in this fallen world is part of His plan now.

But we can make it better if we turn from our "independence" .... one of the things we (in this culture) hold most dear ..... our independence.

Thoughts?

And I wonder what our society would think about the sentence on page 167, "No one reaches their potential in your world."?

Of course the next sentence helps us understand ...... this life is only preparation for what God had in mind all along.

I will leave you with one of the last sentences and ask for your thoughts on it:

"Mackenzie, judgement is not about destruction, but about setting things right."

Again ..... sorry for the brevity, but this is where you jump in and give your thoughts and point out things that I did not include.

Now discuss .....

Easter Sunday .... no post ...

I hope everyone had a good Easter.

If I have enough time tomorrow I'll try to write the next post.  If not, then I'll most likely wait until next weekend ..... which just gives everyone that much more time to comment on last week's post!

:)

Chapter 10: Wade in the Water

Good afternoon, everyone.  

Last week seemed to be a quiet week on the discussion front.  Maybe we were all too pooped from the week before?!

I, for one, love all of the discussion ..... whether or not we agree with each other.  Discussion is good.  Hearing others' ideas is good.  Sharing is good.  Even not agreeing can be good!!!

So please don't hesitate to jump right in and share.  Heck, if you're a bit rattled at the thought of posting, use the anonymous button!  We're all fine with that.  :)

Speaking of jumping right in ....... let's be like Mack and step out on Chapter 10.

(And reminding everyone again ...... just because I don't type something here does NOT mean that I missed it, didn't see it, didn't get it, didn't think it was important.  I am choosing to write only a few things from each chapter ...... and then let everyone jump in and flesh those things out, or add new points, new views, new .... whatever!)

First, I was struck by the opening quote:

"New world -- big horizon

Open your eyes and see it's true

New world -- across the frightening

Waves of blue"

     Yes, I'm obviously struck by it because I am looking out at an entirely different world than the one I thought I would be viewing.  And yes, the thought of that (without Jim) is very frightening.

But it's starting to become less frightening ... and a bit bigger.  Day by day.  Breath by breath.

     I realize that none of us can be certain (no matter how certain we want to be!) about our futures, but did this quote speak to anyone else?

     I loved it when Jesus asked Mack if he wanted to go for a walk, Mack replied, "If you're going, I'm more than willing."

That made me smile.  I love seeing how comfortable he is with Jesus ..... and how it's been pretty instinctive for Mack to be drawn to Him ...... and to now be excited to follow Him.

     I also loved it when Mack said "damn" and then blushed and corrected himself .... like Jesus hadn't heard it before ..... coming from Mack, or even in Mack's mind.  Too funny ---- the things we like to think that we can hide from God.

We make me laugh.

     So did everyone see what was coming on the walk as Jesus was heading over the dock?  Did we all realize that He would walk across the water?  

I really enjoyed His humor with Mack ..... humor is big with me, big with my family.  So I love that Jesus just watches him, and pokes fun at him, in a loving way.  

     Our sermon a church today was about Jesus being with us along our journey ..... in the little, sacred moments.  It's not just the destination (Easter), but it's sharing the journey with Him ... even the grief and the pain.

So when Jesus says, on page 140, "I want to walk across with you." ---- I really got a visual of Him wanting to "be" with us ...... through everything.  I liked that statement ....... it showed Mack that Jesus thought he was valuable.  He wants to walk with him, spend time with him.  Nothing big, really.  Just a walk.  But, in that "small, sacred moment" ...... what a big thing to Mack!

     And I thought that Mack asked a very good question ..... at least in his head ..... " but how do you step off a dock onto water?"   Can you imagine it?  It certainly wouldn't feel like anything else we've stepped off on, would it?

     Again, I laughed along with Jesus' humor when He didn't stop Mack before he got his shoes wet.  He could've.  But He didn't.  

Why do YOU think that He didn't?

     I really enjoyed the entire description of the walk ..... from the first, unsure step onto the water, to the last step off onto the rocks on shore.  I liked that Mack could look down for trout .... and yet, not sink as Peter did when he looked down.  Different looking down, for certain, but interesting (at least to me).  I especially loved that Mack was "grinning from ear to ear just thinking about what he was doing."

     Mack wonders aloud why stepping out with Jesus is so hard.  He's knows he's afraid .... he's afraid of what most of us are ........ he defines it in terms of being afraid of how he'll look (like an "idiot") ..... but basically, he's afraid of trusting Jesus.  

And as he's defining his fears he "imagines" what could happen ..... if he steps out.

     And this brings up something very interesting ...... Jesus tells Mack that the power to imagine is a powerful ability (p 141).

"That power alone makes you so like us.  But without wisdom, imagination is a cruel taskmaster."

     And then He talks about living in the past, present and/or future.  

He asks Mack where he spends most of his time .... in his mind.

And so I ask you ...... "where do you spend most of your time in your mind, in your imagination, in the present, in the past, or in the future?"

     I'll go first ...... and it's probably obvious to all ...... my answer, at this point in my life, is the past.  I don't spend much time looking at the future because I know, all too well, that it's very uncertain .... and it (in my powerful imagining) holds quite a bit of pain.

But I spend time in the past ..... though I do not, as Jesus says, have "an extended stay", because that, too, is very, very painful.  I can now look at moments of the past without pain, but if I stay too long, the pain grows.  I know that as each day passes the memories will become less and less painful ..... and I look forward to that.  

     

     What about you?  Where does your "imagining" go?  Do you find yourself fearing the future because of the things you imagine?  The things/events you picture that don't include God there with you?  (Yes, that sentence struck me, too.)

     

     And what perfect sense .... we are desperate to control something ..... so we attempt to take power over our future by imagining how it will be ........ 

Thoughts?

      Jesus talks about the earth, it's His and how much He cares for it ..... and how little we do.  And how much more beauty there is to see .... more than will ever be seen on this side ...... "like special canvasses in the back of an artist's studio, but one day ..."   

What an awesome day that will be, won't it?!

     Then Mack asks Him why They just don't "fix" everything ..... which leads to more discussion of free will, submission, relationships of love and respect ..... and Jesus telling Mack (surprising Mack) that God, Sarayu and He are submitted to us in the same way that they are submitted to one another (p.145).

I'm guessing that Mack wasn't the only one surprised at this statement ........

Anyone?

Another sentence that made me stop and think is on p. 148:  "Remember, I am not about performance and fitting into man-made structures; I am about being."

I. Love. This. Sentence.

Man-made structures ------ church buildings?

I see so many people, especially in our community, struggling with this concept ..... "I am about being."

I LOVE it ..... it seems so simple to me ...... now.

I feel like I'm saying it all of the time to people ...... just "be".

"Be" with one another. 

"Be" with God.

Just "BE".

I think it takes a lot of energy to learn how to "be" ...... but once you've got it down ...... it's so very relaxing ..... and energy-boosting.

Thoughts?

OK, my last thought (or at least the last one I will WRITE about) ....... is really a question for you (from page 149):

So ........ did you ever wear a "WWJD" bracelet?  And if so ....... your thoughts about what Jesus says about that?  I have my own thoughts, but I think I've said enough for now.

It's time for you to jump in.

The water's quite warm ........ and safe.

Let's discuss ........

Chapter 9: A Long TIme Ago, in a Garden Far, Far Away

Happy Sunday, everyone.

Well, I'm hoping to get my thoughts collected well enough about this chapter to make at least of bit of sense.  

     I am working on making my "job" here easier for me ..... I am not going to bring up every single thing that I see in these chapters (it was getting to be WAY too much time and pressure-from myself).  Instead, I am going to force myself to only bring up a few things ..... and hopefully you all will fill in the rest.  So ..... just because I don't write it here .... doesn't mean I didn't see it--nor does it mean that it's not important enough for YOU to write about it.  Bring up EVERYTHING that God lets you see!!!!

     The words in this chapter ...... the ideas, the thoughts, the lessons ..... are all churning around inside of me, making it difficult to focus ...... very much like the way Mack felt as he tried to follow Sarayu (I loved how he thought she was obviously not a being who is predictable!) through her garden and tried to see everything that was around him at the same time.

It was overwhelming ..... but in an oh, so very good way.  

That's how I feel.

     This chapter is "chaos in color", as Mack described the garden.

Mack tried to find some "order" in the garden but found instead that there was a "blatant disregard for certainty" (p. 128).

That explains my life ..... I have been seeking "order" over the past 15 months, but instead have found that "blatant disregard for certainty" ...... and I am finally realizing, as Mack did, that it is "confusing, stunning, and incredibly beautiful."

Wow ---- to see what's inside of me put into black and white ..... even more stunning and beautiful.  

And I loved that he told Sarayu that her garden looked like a "mess" ...... and she replied, "What a wonderful compliment!"  

     I again notice the repeating theme of the overwhelming of the senses .... the fragrances, the aromas .... even to the point of being able to taste them.  

     The next thing that jumped out of my soul when I read it on the page .... was Sarayu's instruction to Mack:   pull out everything that is beautiful to make room for something special.

Really?!!  Mack, as we humans ...... couldn't understand that!  

     But again ...... it jumped out OF my soul and in front of me ........ this is definitely what God did, and has been doing since December 18, 2007.  He took out the most beautiful thing in my garden, Jim ..... something I never would have agreed needed to be removed, or replaced ....... and left, in his place, a very large "wound in the (my) garden" (p. 131).  

And now He's preparing and planting and tending to that wound ...... and it will eventually be as, if not more, beautiful as before.  

I loved this line from Sarayu (p.131):  "It's not the work (pulling out the beautiful things), but the purpose that makes it special.  And, it's the only kind I do."

This sentence brought (and brings) tears  to my eyes.  

And I whisper, "Thank you ..... for loving me THAT much .... for having a purpose."

   I also like the discussion of "good" and "bad".  God don't do "bad" (forgive the slang).  But He don't.

   We, as humans, define what's bad (or even more serious ... what's "evil") when we are absent from God.  I loved that she said that evil and darkness do not exist.  Only Light and Good exist, but it's we who plunge ourselves into darkness when we distance ourselves from God. (p. 136).

Saraya goes so far as to say (in explaining the non-existence of evil) .... if we, as humans, give up our "right"(ha!) of "independence" (double ha!) ...... it could mean that ... 

"... that in one instance, the good may be the presence of cancer or the loss of income ---or even a life."

There. Are. No. Words.

     I also really liked how Sarayu described science (p. 132):  " ... ---to discern and discover what we have hidden for you to find".

That made me smile.

I imagine it makes God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit smile a lot, too. 

:)

     And ----  I thought this sentence was so powerful (in their discussion of poisonous plants, and safety while in God's presence) from Sarayu:  "So, if you are not hearing my voice, it would be wise to take the time to understand the nature of the plant."

So very powerful with so much meaning ...... because we have so very many "plants" in our world.

    There was a lot more said about our "rights" and the way we define things ..... and our striving to be independent beings ......SO much ........ but I'd like to stop here and have everyone else jump in and discuss.

I really loved this chapter ..... and seeing how clearly God is speaking to me through it.

When, on the last page, Mack says that he feels strangely at home and comfortable in that garden, Sarayu says:

"And well you should, Mackenzie (Janine), because this garden is your soul.  This mess is you!

Together, you and I, we have been working with a purpose in your heart.  And it is wild and beautiful and perfectly in process.  To you it seems like a mess, but to me, I see a perfect pattern emerging and growing and alive --- a living fractal".

And I say ..... "Thank God!"

Now discuss ......